Brakes, what are these

[Mark Bagnall]

Calipers on a Phaeton S3, discs are solid, 245mm diameter.  I was expecting they would be type 16 but can't see any type number.  Anyone have an idea?

[Adrian Southgate]

Capri, Cortina, Mexico and RS Escort, Granada all had them. Also known as M16 calipers.

Brakes International do a kit with 4 pistons, seals, dust covers and spring rings for about £47, happy to sort the ebay item number if required as I just did the ones on the Legerra, upgraded to vented discs.

[Mark Bagnall]

Ade, was the upgrade on your Legerra?  I had also looked at 4 pots but not sure how much benefit they would be on the Phaeton - although I do want to do some track days.  The 4 pot calipers presumable fit on the same mountings and are wide enough for the vented discs?  Can you let me know the ebay numbers so I can have a look?

[Adrian Southgate]

Yes, the green one.

I have one set of four pots, not even tried them for alignment as was saving them for the six pot phaeton project just in case I can't use BMW parts.

I used

the M16 spacer kit @ £28 300448241123 

Piston and seal kit @ £47.95 231503538165 

Shim and pin kit @ £9.99 331347831537

Vented discs (pair) @ £29.12 200706604801

Problems I ran into were all of my own making as I was using solid cast stub axles with cast in steering arms which don't have the clearances for vented discs. If you have bolt on steering arms from an RS or Mex then the whole thing will go together including the back plates which I had to leave off mine and std trackrod ends which I had to replace with rose joints. Got to say that was an unexpected bonus as it is now so precise, there is no room for play in the steering at all.

The extended bolts available on ebay don't work as the pitch is wrong. M12 x 1.75  is the right pitch for cast stub axles. The braking force isnt improved but it will last longer without fading as it dissipates the heat better.

[Mark Bagnall]

Err, I miss read your post - I realise you are using the standard M16 calipers with spacers so you can fit the vented discs.  do you feel there is a braking benefit?

[Adrian Southgate]

No improvement in efficiency however vast improvement on 'keen' driving brake fade issues :)

Braking can depend on so many issues and someone will no doubt correct me if i'm wrong however fitting a slightly larger bore master cylinder might produce more pressure on the discs.

[Adrian Southgate]

I have a set of used vented discs to go with the four pots, again not even measured them :(

[Mark Bagnall]

I understand they should be one of those but the only designations I can see are "78R" and "109P" or "108P" (can't be sure which).  So I wondered whether anyone recognised the make / designation.  I'm considering re-building or replacing as one caliper seemed to jam briefly over the weekend - very interesting!  but since cleaning pads they have been fine.

[Adrian Southgate]

The calipers came in all shapes, those are the same as a pair I have on the bench to rebuild as and when finances allow, I took the same type off the legerra too. I currently have 3 pairs awaiting rebuild.

I also blew the budget and bought stainless bleed screws, expensive compared to std ones but worth having if your doing a full rebuild.

[James Doulton]

ATE are a continental (German?) brake manufacturer.

[Mark Bagnall]

Thanks Daryl.  I noticed there were no shims/springs just the pads but fitting kits include them.  All the resons I have seen for the shima are to do with noise or thermal control but I wondered, as the pictures show the shims only cover part of the pad, whether the tilt effect would tend to reduce the likelyhood of a piston jamming.  I'm trying to work out why one of mine jammed but is OK now.