Running rebuild

[Mark Bagnall]

Things are looking up. This yellow series 3 Phaeton is the sort of car I should have bought first time round - it drives, has an mot, and I fit in!!
I won't go into all the details but the purchase took around a month - there was no V5 at first. Collecting was a marathon - 240 miles there, with huge road works was bad enough but coming back the first stop for fuel resulted in a complete failure of the starter motor. Luckily my son in the support vehicle had no problem push starting so we eventually made it home around midnight.
I have now started working through the car, listing jobs - the idea (which I'm sure many people have) is to bring it up to the spec/standard I want while using and enjoying it.
Basic spec as relayed by last owner; 1700 cross flow, 711 block, BCF2 cam, running unleaded. I'm hoping the valves have hardened seats and valve spring have been sorted, although I'm only using 6 to 6,500 revs as a rolling road print out and on road experience suggest power peaks at 6,000.
The first job was to sort the starting. The last owner had installed 24 volt starting with 2 enormous batteries behind the passenger seat. Now I know this has been used for high compression cross flows before but a web search and my gut suggested a properly working system should cope without the need to go to 24v or an expensive high torque starter. Simple testing, by direct wiring the starter, produced no action and a quick strip down revealed burnt brushes and burnt and pitted rotor.
Even though I'm out in the wilds of Shropshire, there is an old school auto electrician who rebuilt the starter the day I took it in (R J Jones, Snailbeach, recommended, if you are ever this way).
I then spent this morning putting into practice my experience of designing electrical connectors (if there is something wrong in a circuit, first check the connections) by cleaning and tidying the connections and adding additional wires (to ensure the lowest resistance) including removing one battery and returning to 12 volts. The result is perfect starting!
So I'm on my way and really enjoying the driving - ill add some more photos and comments tomorrow.

[Adrian Southgate]

Ebay link HERE

And... this is what a set of diamond cut RS wheels should look like, notice the thinner spokes. I'm hoping this service will soon be available to Dutton owners at 'mates rates' if my little plan comes off.

[Mark Bagnall]

Was in town today, bought a set of ford nuts from the breakers, £10, happy now but will need some new nuts if I go for the shinny new diamond cut finish you showed.

[Adrian Southgate]

It mwill be a while before I am up and running providing the finance comes through.

I'll be able to do Capri wheels on an exchange basis as I have a few spares already.

[Mark Bagnall]

RIDE HEIGHT & SUSPENSION TRAVEL

Any views welcome....

The steel bar must be a sump guard, it is about 2 inches off the ground so does bottom out on the rough roads around here - I haven't dared go into town over speed bumps yet.

The sump looks non standard (1700 crossflow)

Suspension travel is pretty minimal, the rear is around 1 inch before the bump stops.  Both front and rear are gaz adjustables - I plan to work out what the spring rates are later.

I think a previous owner could have been focused on smooth road (track day?) performance so everything is lowered and stiffened.  Althoug I hope to do some track days I also want to drive on real roads, which round here means rough.

The other thing I noticed was how far the chassis protrudes below the side panels;

Shame the last 2 photos are rotated, makes them tricky to understand.  The above is the ground on the right, chassis in the middle and the white strip on the left is the aluminium side panel.  This was taken looking straight at the chassis so it does stick out a long way.

Does this look right?  - Phaeton S3

PLANS

I will try winding the spring seats up a little to gain some ground clearance and possibly allow fitting softer springs.  There also seems clearance to raise the engine (the mounts seem to have been slotted to lower it).  I can then raise or remove the sump guard.

Any guidance for what the chassis height from the ground is typically and what a reasonable clearance under the sump would be?

[Big Vern]

The distance between the bottom of the lower side rails and the ground should be 6 inch/150mm

Many people lower the car to get a better look with the wheels in the wheel arches then lose the sump on the nearest bump in the road. Suspension movement should see the chassis drop by a maximum of 2 inch/50mm from static ride to full bump.

Looks you have a Cortina or Auto sump as it hangs below the bottom of the bellhousing.

[Mark Bagnall]

Thanks, I'll measure up to see where I am now

[Mark Bagnall]

Some interesting measurements of chassis to ground. The back and near side are low. Back c. 4.8 & 5.5 inch and front c. 5.6 & 6.2 inches with the damper seats at about the same heights (left to right).
My initial assessment is the top spring/damper mounts are different heights relative to the chassis - not surprising from what I have heard of the dutton chassis manufacture.
I'm now trying to adjust the spring seats to level the chassis and see where I am (installed spring length) Also on the list is to remove the dampers and check damper travel and spring rates/lengths.

[Big Vern]

Take time to adjust each spring platform until you have 6" at the front and rear of each side rail then see what sump/bell housing ground clearances you have.

The Dutton set up from the factory was 2.5" total damper travel. So what you have looks correct. Remember that the axle tube should never come into contact with the chassis rail or the axle tube will bend. Think about this if you choose to relocate the top mounts, also lowering the chassis only increases the risk of grounding out.

Check also the engine mounts. Escorts had one short and one long engine mount but some people used two shorts to lower the engine so the air cleaner would fit under the bonnet. (Dutton designed the car for the air cleaner to come through the bonnet.) You should just be able to get your clenched fist between the sump and the ground.

What are your motivations for lowering the car?

[Mark Bagnall]

Hi Big Vern, thanks again. 

To be clear I DON'T want to lower the car - if possible I wanted to raise it to stop bottoming and have some more suspension travel and softer springs.

I have just bought it and I think whoever set up the suspension was aiming for a low centre of gravity and stiff suspension maybe for track work.

I want to use primarily on road, occasionally on track but I'm sure even with things raised a bit the handling will still be fun.

[Dave Adams]

my thought of raising the spring mounts at the rear would also include raising the lower mounts as they look very low.........

[Big Vern]

If its bottoming out but you can feel every pebble you drive over then the springs may be too soft and the damping set too hard. The bump stops are probably too soft as well, so when you hit a bump it crashes through and feels really hard.

Tyres will have an effect too. 60 profile or lower will increase the hard race car feel. 185/70x13 work really well or 195/70x14 if you want something to 'fill' the wheel arches a bit

[Mark Bagnall]

I understand your point.  I will assess carefully when I have the chassis at the right level.  My feeling at the moment is still coloured by the drive home - the tyres were at 30psi + !  I've now set them at 18 which is a big improvement.

The tyres are 185/70 but are old so will be changed soon for the same size.

I am running out of adjustment on the rear dampers (the springs are short) so I will take them off (measure damper stroke and spring rate) and see if I can sort out a spacer or I'll have to leave the rear a bit low for now as I don't want to buy springs yet.